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Hey everybody, welcome back to Mac and Mike and it’s Mac Mike and Joe again today with
our Sundays with Mac and Mike.
Today we decided we’re going to sort of start from the beginning.
I’ve been working with a couple people on their interest in the faith and I think we
all have a story to tell our own personal story.
I think we’re more alike as human beings coming to know the Lord than we are different.
There are two distinctions that we’re going to have which is good in this video.
We’re going to have Joe and Mac who were born into a particular faith who can talk about
that from their perspective and then after they tell their story, you know, I’ll comment
and tell mine because I didn’t become a Christian or have faith until I was 29 years of age.
So my story is just a little different but not uncommon.
Well, you were 29 years old but mentally you’re more like eight, yep.
So that’s my buddy Mac with a sense of humor.
So anyway, I guess, which might have been nine, I don’t mean to misrepresent.
Has he grown out of it at all?
Well, you know, I think the scripture tells us that it’s the children.
Do you like the little children?
Yeah, yep.
On the hair.
God loves the little kids.
So I don’t know, Joe, since you’re the guest from afar down in Georgia, why don’t you give
us about 10 minutes and I’ll try and warn us when the 10 minutes is up about your journey
to coming to become a Christian that you are today?
Well, yeah, sure.
I grew up in Sicily.
I was born there and as a little boy, I watched all the processions.
They’re very devoted there in my town.
You have a lot of churches and all the women actually get on their knees and crawl across
our town in certain times of these possessions, which, you know, I always found as encouraging
to my faith and my near death experiences there as a little boy tend to reinforce my faith
as well.
When I came to America, and that wasn’t so true, I did not see all that faith.
So I probably swayed a little bit when in the military and it got all the, what do you
want to call it?
A vinegar out of me, I’ll leave the first part out and then I came out and I started thinking
about making my future as far as what I was going to do in life and I started out trying
to be a truck driver and then quite get into that.
It was quite weird how there’s a roadblock in front of anybody almost unless you buy
your own truck, you’re not going to be a truck driver unless, you know, you have some
in to the industry as well as the, I should say the machinery I try to get in to be a operator
for heavy equipment in the Chicago Union lap that means that there’s an eight year waiting
I’m like, it’s more an adapter.
So I didn’t want to go there and so I started doing a lot of things, landscaping, all kinds
of, you know, different areas, but I finally came to the point where I started my own business
with a cab company and that’s where I met my wife, which I told you the story, but I don’t
like Mac knows it.
I actually worked at this cab company for over a year and a half and never talked to any
cab driver ever and all the cab stands out, one in part, all of a sudden the week before
I met my wife, this cab driver calls me into his cab and tells me the story of how he met
his wife through driving a cab.
And Lord and behold, a week later I picked up this girl to go and I stayed a little later
at my kid that night and I got her call and I took her to a place called Fitzgerald, it
was a music tavern and I dropped her off and I said, well, you know, I come back after I
get off of my own car and give you a ride home and that was when I met my wife, which
is kind of where did it, you know, it wouldn’t happen like this guy would tell me and boom,
not that I married her right away, but long story short as we started dating and we got
married and we lived in my mom’s and dad’s house for a while and then we got some breaks
in our life and I started growing.
I actually got involved with a church that was a missionary church.
The Cambodis, Daniel Cambodia, Saint, and he started this church in Africa and his mission
I should say, I’m sorry.
And I got involved and I’ve been involved with them for over 30 years now.
So that grew my faith because I see they were doing work that I thought was righteous.
All the other churches, you know, I told you Mike was Saint Barbara’s is one of the churches
I attended there in Illinois and I had a hard time with them because the school was with
the church.
You know, the nuns kind of abused me a little bit, but I was a no angel.
I mean, they had some discipline was needed, but ultimately I grew out of all that and got
the faith through.
I believe getting more involved with the church and that’s what helped me.
So when you got more involved with the Caboni mission, that’s when you really fell to closeness
to Christ and your faith.
I did.
I believe the neuro mission they gave me more faith.
Well, I was only five minutes, but why don’t you go ahead and Mac and tell your quick story.
Mike, I can’t tell a quick story.
I know.
No, you got you got five more minutes of Joe’s time.
It’s not until a quick story.
I mean, I think my early life exposure to the Catholic church being Christian is pretty
much like most cradle Catholics in America, you know, my mom and dad, my dad was not Catholic
when he married my mom.
And as a matter of fact, when my mom decided she was ready to get married to this man,
she took him to the priest and they, you know, when you’re non-Catholic, you have to go through
a series of, you know, conversations with the priest and what they’re interested in is if
you’ll raise the children in the Catholic church.
And at one point in time, the priest looks at my mom and says, this guy is never going
to make you find some other guy to get married to.
But they did get married.
My father converted to the Catholic church.
Anyways, he’s the most staunch Catholic that I know, but my mom was absolutely fully Catholic.
There is no woman who was more Catholic than my mom was.
And that was her choice.
And that was her beliefs.
And so I was raised in the Catholic church and I went through all the sacraments.
You know, you go through, you know, you have your first confession, you have your first
community, you get your confirmation, you know, so you do all of these things.
And we went to a parochial school.
So I had nuns too, Joe, and I remember Sister Jude, I was in love with that woman.
You know, she was probably 35 and I was eight.
I was shooting.
She’s the one that knocked me out.
Sister Bertha was the one that was a disciplinarian and I was on her list.
But so, you know, you go through the, you know, you get inculcated, you know, Baltimore,
Catechism, all that stuff through your religious training in the schools.
And you don’t really give it another thought.
It’s not like there’s something to compare or contrast it to.
You’re just fettled this information and you kind of becomes a second nature.
It’s not like you’re, it’s not like you’re doing any critical thinking.
You’re, you’re fed a lot of information, a lot of things, a lot of beliefs, a lot of statements.
And, you know, because they’re coming from people who are in position of power and authority
and because it was, you know, it was only reinforced by my mom, you know, you come to believe
in the Catholic faith and the Catholic church.
When I got married with a little girl and then we, our next pregnancy was a little boy.
And I prayed to have a son and, you know, I love my dad, my dad is still with me and
I love him to this day and I would do anything for him and I’m so proud to be his son.
And so, as I prayed for a son, I prayed that I would be able to name my son after my father.
My father is Alan Sr., I’m Alan Jr., my son was going to be number one.
So we did that and Alan John McCormick III was born and he only lived six months and he
died in infancy.
He was born in December and died in April and I guess really five months, right?
And when that, you know, I remember the night that he died and we were in the hospital and
all these people wanted to help, you know, my wife and I, they wanted to help us.
They wanted to help us overcome the grief and I wanted to find some way to make it okay
or make it better and they would all say, oh, we understand.
Now let me tell you something, nobody understands unless you’ve been there, nobody understands.
So I asked him to leave us alone and we went into the chapel by ourselves and we cried for
a while and from that experience of losing my son, I got mad.
I got mad.
I got mad at everybody.
I got mad at my wife.
I blamed her somehow.
I blamed, I got mad at myself.
I got mad at God.
There was no consolation.
I’d lost my son and it was so unfair.
It wasn’t right.
How could a loving God do that?
This little baby boy had never had a chance to sin.
That’s, you can’t explain that to me, there’s, there’s no way to explain those circumstances.
So things got really bad.
I was, like I said, I was mad.
I wasn’t fit to be around and I wasn’t a good person in many different ways and I questioned
what I was taught as a youngster and I questioned, I questioned God himself.
How could you do this?
This isn’t fair.
And that went on for a couple of months and during that couple of months period of time,
I looked at other religions.
I said, well, obviously this God, this Catholic God didn’t do me right and I got to find somebody
who will do me right and I couldn’t find anywhere where there was a God that sounded
as righteous as the God of the Catholic Church.
I read a book by a guy named Lee Strobel that said the case for Christ and Lee Strobel didn’t
spend any time trying to convince you of whether or not Christ was who he said he was.
He spent his time with his book trying to confirm did Christ exist.
And if you follow, you know, Lee Strobel’s business was he was a writer for, I think was a Chicago
maybe in Detroit newspaper and his job was to check the police blotter every day and
to get the stories from the police blotter and add that.
So he had to talk with a lot of police and detectives and he learned a lot about their
investigative techniques.
So what he did later in his life when he wanted to fight because he was an atheist and his
wife was Catholic and he wanted to write about this Christ person, he tried to disprove
that Christ existed.
And he interviewed several people, scholars on Jewish history and Roman history and he
actually researched some of the documents that carried Christ’s name in it.
And at the end of the book, the case for Christ, there’s a little doubt from the investigation
that he did that the man Jesus Christ existed.
He was a real person that we wrote written about in history by both the Jewish historians
and the Roman historians.
So you know, you can say what you want to say, but in his research and his investigative
work that he did, he proved to me, and I think he proved to himself more importantly, but
he proved to a lot of other people that Jesus Christ, the man Jesus Christ existed.
And then what you have to do is you have to decide whether or not Jesus Christ, the man
is who he said he was.
And you know, what I kept coming back to is that there was no other religion on the face
of this globe, major religion.
I’m not talking about Jim Jones and the, you know, or the branch of Indians, Corrashian branch
of Indians.
I’m not talking about those kind of people.
I’m talking about a major religious organization.
There’s no other religion on the face of this earth where the leader, the founder of the of
the religion claims that he was God.
Jesus Christ said, I am he, I am his.
So that’s pretty powerful because you look at Hinduism, you look at Islam, you look at
all these other religions.
They all have figures in there, the central figures to their faith, but none of them claimed
that they were God.
Jesus Christ claimed that he was God.
Now I know Jesus Christ, the man existed.
So now I have to figure out whether or not Jesus Christ is who he said he was.
And so in my, in my pain and in my agony and the loss of my son, I went into a really dark
place and no one, my parent, no one, my brother, my wife, my parents, no one could, could make
it okay.
And I pushed everyone away and I spent a lot of time by myself.
And what I learned is while I thought I was by myself, God was with me too.
And when you’re in the deepest, darkest despair is when nothing seems to be okay.
And you start thinking that you’d be better off dead, God’s there.
And it’s funny because I had this priest, I was talking to him one time and I was being
mean and ugly and argumentative.
And I said to this priest, I, you know, one of my dark days, I said, I said, my senior
sailor, this is not fair that my son died.
It’s why he didn’t do anything.
And his priest looked at me and he said, Alan, you said life was supposed to be fair.
I’m sure other people have said that to me during the months that leading up to this.
But for some reason, that moment, that particular instant, I realized that life was never meant
to be fair.
There’s no guarantee that of anything here in this life, you know, you’re given certain
gifts for God and then you have to make the most of them that you can.
And if you’re really, really enlightened and if you’re really, really lucky and you’re
able to find your own personal relationship with God, you will achieve things that you’re
not aware of even possible.
And I think the whole point in my journey is when I learned, you know, there’s an old joke
in the army, there are no atheists in foxholes.
You know, when life is, when you’re at your worst, at the deepest, darkest moment of your
life and there’s nobody to turn to, nobody to make it okay, nobody to help you.
What happens is God is there and you either accept God helping you or you don’t.
And if you do, the gift that you get from accepting God’s help is the understanding that regardless
of what happens, he’s there for you.
And he’s the only one that you can always and ultimately trust and believe.
And that’s the gift that you get when you have those moments of despair, that complete
lack of wanting to live.
What you get as a gift from him is that he loves you and that’s enough.
And I will say my life has been different since then and not that I was always a good man because
I’ve said, Oh God, have I said I’ve strayed and I’ve done bad things and I’ve done things
I’m not proud of.
But I always know, you know, I always tell my dad and I used to tell my mom, I would do
things that I always knew that if I got in trouble, mom and dad would back me up.
But it’s the same thing with God, it doesn’t matter what you do, it doesn’t matter what
you’re guilty of.
It doesn’t matter what kind of evil that you’re associated with.
If you turn to God, he’s there and he will forgive you and he will help you.
And that kind of relationship is what I think makes me a believer in Christ, the Trinity.
I think throughout the years, some of the times I’ve given Jesus Christ the credit for
problems that he’s helped me with, I think maybe that was really the Holy Spirit that
helped me.
I don’t understand how the Trinity works.
I accept it on faith because that’s what I was taught.
There’s many times that I don’t understand it, but I’ve come to reconcile that by saying
I’m a man and not a God and I don’t understand God like ways.
So not that I wish anyone to have that despair that I once had, but I will tell you, the gift
that I got from that despair was a real understanding of the love of God and how important that is.
And I want more of it.
I guess that’s my story, Mike.
Yeah, that’s it.
And not sure you did good.
You kept it under 15 minutes there, buddy.
All right.
So, but yeah, I mean, that’s a very good story that I think percentage of people who may stumble
into this video may be able to associate with.
And it’s sad, but I think it’s sort of a common thing that people struggle through.
My story is completely different.
While you both were brought up in particular face, I wasn’t.
I was born to a mom who was paranoid schizophrenic and a father who’s left when I was probably
four years old and my grandparents ended up raising me until I was 12.
But it was an interesting place.
I was born in Queens, New York, and in the back of our house was a graveyard.
And you know, me and my brother throw frisbee or something or a ball and go into the graveyard
and their little white tombstones were in front of these big brown ones and they were all from
the 1800s and it was spooky, you know, you don’t want to go over the fence and it’s the graveyard.
But I remember asking my grandmother, who was a New York City schoolteacher, what were
those little white grave markers?
And she said that’s when they buried children on top of their parents when they died in infancy.
And I can’t remember how old I was, maybe six, maybe eight, I don’t know.
But it really stuck with me and I’m like, oh, wow, what’s this whole thing you’re talking
I didn’t really understand death.
And then I realized, oh, not only can do people die, but babies and children die.
So I’m a child, that could be me.
But you know, I was, while I was not taken to church, I was given the little books, the
Bible story books.
My dad’s side of the family, I knew my dad’s parents, my grandparents, they were staunch
Roman Catholic.
My mom, I found out later in life, she came from an Episcopalian background.
My step-grandfather who raised me was Lutheran, didn’t know all this so much later.
And my grandmother was actually a spiritist, you know, she believed in tarot card reading
and all this kind of stuff.
So it was kind of a mixed bag, but through my formative teen years, I tried to do the
best I could because it was the days before the internet read as many books as I could.
We didn’t psychopedias, so I would study world religions.
And I tried to understand.
And of course, the native religion was Christianity, but I think I discounted Christianity because
it was such a cultural influence.
I thought, well, there’s all these other views of God, maybe they demand a certain amount
of investigation before I come to some kind of conclusion if I ever could.
So I ended up going to a boys’ home at age 12, not because I was bad, but because my
grandparents were getting too old to care for me.
Well, we’re not so sure that the old bad thing wasn’t part of it too, Mike.
So during my boys’ home experience, I suffered a lot.
Nobody loves you in a boys’ home, there’s no love, nobody’s there to protect you.
I was 12 years old, I was essentially on my own with a group of 60 other boys and those
other boys are mean and they’re big and they beat you up and you have to get physically
and mentally tough.
Take your stuff and whatever, yeah?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you get to, you know, don’t wish it on anybody.
But I mean, if you emerge, you know, I got strong, I got smart, realized I had to be both.
And you know, by the time I think I was in 10th grade, I could probably take any senior
in the place physically and I think I was pretty sharp, I was an honor student.
But I became too over intellectualized for any particular faith.
Now they made you go to chapel and they made you go to Sunday school.
So I had that introduction and when I was 16, I remember sitting in a Sunday school class
and the teacher said, you know, you have any questions that nobody wanted to ask.
So he said, no, I’m serious.
There won’t be any, you know, won’t, won’t think you’ll love you.
So I raised my hand and I said, well, what makes you so sure that what you believe is
the correct thing.
He said, it’s a good question and it sticks to me to this day and I’m 65.
And he said, well, Mike, let me ask you that.
If I am right, what does that mean?
So I guess that means you’re going to have, he said, what does it mean if I’m wrong?
I said, I don’t know, but he answered me and said, it just means I lived a better life.
He said, but that’s for me.
Now let’s turn it around.
If I’m right about Jesus Christ, what does that mean for you if you don’t believe?
And I looked at him straight in the face.
I said, I guess that means I’m going to hell.
I mean, that was the logical consequence of not believing in Christ.
I knew that much, but it didn’t impress me.
So I was kind of young while I got into a fight with the administrator.
Long story I won’t go into.
I ended up having to leave the boys on my ran away at 16.
I’ve been pretty much on my own ever since.
Although I got taken in later by my aunt for a period of time, got my act together.
She made me get a haircut.
It was the heavy generation.
She made me get my GED because I was an honor student.
She made me go to college.
So I went to college a little while for psychology.
And then I worked at United Parcel Service, went into the Air National Guard and then
took an active duty Air Force position.
And as time went on, the thing that was the impetus in my life is, you know, I was
always sort of aware of this generic God.
I’d say I was an agnostic.
I just didn’t know.
Never would have said I was an atheist.
So I was working in the back of a tractor trailer at UPS and it’s hot and it’s cold.
I can’t tell you.
It’s like the worst job in a row.
I did it for six and a half years.
And I got on my knees and I was praying to this God that I didn’t know.
And I said, if you get me out of this, I swear I’ll turn my life over to you.
It’s like, oh my God, it’s the classic bargaining with God, right?
Three days later, I get a call from my guard unit that there’s an active duty position open
if I wanted to interview for it and I got it.
And I was out of that hell hole in less than a month.
And I really enjoyed my Air Force career, but there was a Bible study, this is years
later, that I started going to it, the unit was fundamental, you know, I’ll go into a
fundamentalist is maybe some other time, but real hard for a Bible, believe me God.
And it was in the middle of the Tammy Fade Baker, Jimmy Swaggard scandals.
Now, much of our audience that isn’t all won’t remember who that is.
My kids are conditioned dog house.
Yes. Yeah.
And, you know, that was when the term born again was all around.
Yeah, praise Lord, if you had to be born again.
So there was a guy in the parachute shop next to me, Steve, he was one of these born
again Christians, you know, and everybody teased him, but he was a nice guy.
He never pushed his religion on you, but you knew what he was.
So one day, my grandmother had given me this whole family Bible, written in the
1918’s or is that’s when it was published, right?
So I opened it to this passage that there’s born again thing or keep talking about.
And sure enough, here in the Bible from 1918, Jesus is there talking to Nicodemus saying,
you got to be born again in order and every king of the God, I went, wow, it’s not a
cult thing.
I thought it was a cult thing, you know, and I said, if it’s from 1918, it’s not new, right?
I mean, this is like around 19 plus 79, 1980, some.
And at that point, I had ever since the Lord delivered me from UPS and I really enjoyed
my job.
I never fulfilled my end of the deal.
I never turned my life over to Christ.
But I think I became less angry over time.
And that morning, when I read that, I just decided, okay, I’m going to believe that you
are who you say you are, Jesus, just like you said, you know, it’s like you knew the man
existed, you knew the history, but you had to decide, you know, is he really who he said
he was?
So I go to work that morning, it’s really funny.
The news is on about the bakers again.
And everybody in my shop is making fun of this really nice born again guy in the parachute
next door.
And he’s not there to defend himself.
And talking about what a buffoon he was, there wasn’t a single person in the shop that
I worked in, you know, six guys that were strong enough Christian to defend him.
And I stood up, I felt like God picked me up by the shoulder.
And I used some really ungodly language.
And I cursed them all out because they were judging a man who was, I mean, the guy who
was the one who defined himself.
Well, no, not only that, he wasn’t there to defend, he was a great guy.
I mean, everybody spoke well about him and loved him.
He had a great sense of humor.
He was no stick of the mud.
And this thing on the news was what was perverting their opinion of him.
And I said, you know, I just read my Bible this morning and they’re right.
You have to be born again.
It says so.
Go find any Bible will sell, you know, tell us you’re right there.
So anyway, the word got around the unit and one of these born again Christians from maintenance
came knocking at lunchtime and said, Hey, Kelly, it’s all over the base that you were
defending Stevie Simmons next door.
This was Steve Kenna.
And he said, I want to talk to you.
He was one of these pushy kind.
I said, I don’t even want to talk to you.
He said, no, no, he’s calmed down.
I’m not going to push.
It took me outside.
And he started to explain that I shouldn’t be using the F bomb and damn and all this kind
of stuff when I’m trying to talk to people about Jesus.
It’s so funny.
But then he invited me to the Bible study and my time grew.
I left the fundamentalist church.
I got involved in more intellectual things.
So that’s kind of where my story ended and I ended up running the Bible website
for a pastor who was an international scholar and I guess that’s one of the things that brings
us here today.
But we all have our own personal journey.
We just got the warning.
Let’s see.
Let’s say nine minutes left.
We got a little bit of time.
So that was my journey.
And I know they’re all different, but I think it’s really neat to hear everybody else’s
because there are people again who I hope this reaches that will be coming along struggling
like the Lord’s calling them or their questioning and they’ve got to know we’re more alike than
we are different.
You’re not going through what you’re going through alone, whether you’re struggling
with alcohols or an addiction, which is common today, but sex addiction, drug addiction,
all the different things, you’re not alone, and we’re not going to be perfect.
And becoming Christian doesn’t mean we’re perfect.
Maybe that’s a good subject for us to talk about here for a minute.
What do you think, Joe?
Yeah, no, it’s definitely not a thing that we can be perfect in this world because it’s
an evil world.
And I mean, I don’t know if you can see it, but in the world of darkness, be a light.
And that’s, you know, ultimately what we need to do and we have to concentrate on it.
And we’re all going to fall short of being anything close to Jesus, but we all have to
keep trying.
And just for you, Mac, I personally think that your son got the easy ticket to heaven.
Yeah, kind of.
And I believe that with Alzheimer’s too, I believe that these people are getting, I should say,
their purgatory on earth to wash their sins away.
Well, whatever it is, maybe earth in total is purgatory.
Maybe we just need to learn that.
I don’t know.
That’s a good point.
But yeah, that’s something that you two guys share in common.
I admire that you take care of your parents with Alzheimer’s.
Well, Dan doesn’t have Alzheimer’s, but he’s clearly he’s edging towards dementia.
He forgets, you know, the stories from 40 years ago, he can tell clarity, but he doesn’t
remember what he had for lunch, or if he had lunch today, it’s just, it’s, it’s sad
seeing such a great man day, my day lose a little bit more of them, you know.
So yeah, there’s not a lot of people that would do that.
I know.
I mean, yeah, see, you guys think nothing of it, then you might think well of me for taking
care of granddaughter and daughter that are not my own flesh and blood, but you know, there’s
a way the Holy Spirit works in us, you know, is love, which is my friend Max, right, main
focus that we talk about a lot.
And, you know, I think when you love somebody might, what you do for them is not a chore.
It’s not a, it’s not something that you are unhappy doing.
It’s something that even if it’s unpleasant, or if it’s tedious, or if it’s bothersome sometimes,
when you love someone, it’s, you don’t take it that way.
You know, it’s just what needs to be done because that person needs it and you want them
to have it.
That’s all.
But it’s, it’s, we’re getting I guess really close to the end, but I would like to continue
this sort of an illogical progression because we started and we could get into a new subject
of love and what Christ has done in our life.
You know, it’s one thing to be a Christian and there’s the old question now, do you have
to do works?
Well, you know, okay.
So that’s Samaritan, brother.
Told us.
And, and, and that’s a great discussion.
I think maybe we should launch into that next time.
You know, what does it mean to be a Christian?
You know, how does Christ and the Holy Spirit move us?
And what, you know, that argument, I sum, I sum up and I’ll just sum it really quickly
is, you know, whether you believe that you have to do good works or not, any arguments
If you are a Christian, you will because God is in you, the Holy Spirit is in you, Christ
is real to you.
You cannot have these things and not produce good fruit.
It’s just, I think that’s something it’s in the nature of things, right, it’s your new
We were born again into a new nature, a new mindset.
So that’s about that.
We’ve got a few minutes left.
Let’s see what we’ve got.
We’ve actually got four minutes left.
Anybody want to sum anything else up?
Well, you mentioned love and my affinity for God’s love for us and Christ’s instruction
to us.
How many times did he tell us to love one another, right?
I mean, only one time did Jesus mention a new commandment, just one, once in his three
years of ministry, he said to his disciples, this is the new commandment that I give to
you, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Now set aside for a moment.
It’s impossible for any human being to love as perfectly as Jesus Christ loves, right?
So that’s an understandable objective.
But that he took time to say that love one another as I loved you, you know, the whole,
if you look at the Bible and you compare it to other documents of other religions, Jesus
Christ and the New Testament, talks about love almost consistently all the time.
Very few other religions talk about love in the same way, you know, John in his gospel
says, God is love.
That’s nine letters of the alphabet.
That’s three words.
That’s the simplest sentence ever spoken.
God is love.
Eight sentence, nine letters, three words, explain it to me.
You know, nine is a very prominent number in God’s creations.
Well, I guess we’re about that time.
I guess we’ve got to wrap it up unless you want a final word there, Joe.
No other than Jesus Christ, the easiest way for me to put it to people that want to really
believe is he’s the only man that conquered his enemy through his death that he voluntarily
No other man in this world as conquered his enemy through death like that.
There you go.
It’s a good one.
All right.
Well, I guess that sums up our Sunday with Mac Mike and Joe for this week, Mac and Mike